Foreign Minister responds to West Papua accusations

Foreign Minister responds to West Papua accusations

Senator Carr, our journalists have been told that Australian officials believed Detachment 88 was involved in the killing of Mako Tabuni, is that correct?

BOB CARR, FOREIGN MINISTER: I can't say that, Leigh. We've made representations with the Indonesian Government for an investigation into his death; we've made representations, I should say, to the Indonesians about human rights in the Papuan provinces of Indonesia, we'll continue to do that. We'll continue to make representations for an inquiry into the circumstances of his death.

LEIGH SALES: Australian officials have raised with the Indonesians on numerous occasions this particular case; that would indicate that you do think there is a problem, doesn't it?

BOB CARR: Well, we think the best way of clarifying the situation is for an inquiry, and we've never hesitated to raise human rights issues in the two Papuan provinces, and we'll continue to do it. I've raised it myself with the Indonesian Foreign Minister, my counterpart, Marty Natalegawa and Prime Minister Gillard has raised it with the President of Indonesia as recently as June this year.

LEIGH SALES: Those are extremely high-level representations to make. What evidence is there that you've seen that has led you to want to make those representations?

BOB CARR: Well, I've been advised that we should make representations about the circumstances of his death, but it is in the context that we've got a long record of making representations about human rights in the Papuan provinces of Indonesia.

My very first meeting with an Indonesian foreign minister in March - the week I was sworn in as Foreign Minister - I came to the issue of human rights in the Papuan provinces.

And to his credit, Marty Natalegawa, the Indonesian Foreign Minister was ready, ready even before I raised it... ready even before I raised it to talk about the Indonesian obligation to see that human rights were respected, and the sometime difficulties they experienced in seeing that this was done in remote locations.

LEIGH SALES: In this particular case, what sort of an inquiry is it that you want?

BOB CARR: We think an inquiry that satisfies concerns by people in the Papuan provinces, and would see that there is a full airing of all the circumstances here, and we do...

LEIGH SALES: So who would do that?

BOB CARR: Well... we'd like to see the Indonesians make a suggestion about how that should be done, but it would need to satisfy public opinion in the Papuan provinces, and satisfy us that it's going to be a full and open affair.

LEIGH SALES: Most recently, Australian diplomats visited Papua on the 7th August and the Tabuni killing was discussed. Who did they speak to there and what did they learn?

BOB CARR: I'd need to get advice on that, Leigh, but I've been told by our embassy in Jakarta that they have consistently pursued this matter.

Indeed, it was raised three times recently - twice in June, once in August - and our ambassador expects to raise it again.

But again, it takes place in the context of us consistently recognising Indonesian sovereignty over Papua, and at the same time asserting our right as a friend and a neighbour to raise human rights issues - most recently this one.

LEIGH SALES: Again, I point out that's a lot of times to raise an issue and certainly at very high levels, but I don't feel you've explained to me what evidence is it that you've seen that has made you want to make those representations?

BOB CARR: Well, I don't think there's a need to do that...

LEIGH SALES: Why? Do you think it's diplomatically problematic?

BOB CARR: Well no, no, we just want to have an inquiry into everything surrounding this case. We think it would be in the interest of Indonesia in particular and in the interest of their human rights record in the Papuan provinces.

LEIGH SALES: Separate to that inquiry, is the Australian Government doing anything else to find out if Indonesian forces trained by Australians are targeting activists in Papua?

BOB CARR: Well, we train Indonesians in counter-terrorism. We do that because it's in Australia's interest. We do it because we want the Indonesians to have a strong, a formidable, anti-terrorist capacity. It is absolutely in Australia's interests that we have this relationship, but we don't train them in counter-insurgency - it's counter-terrorism.

LEIGH SALES: What sort of accountability measures or transparency measures are in place to make sure that those forces aren't doing that sort of activity?

BOB CARR: Well, part of that training is in human rights; just as we train our own armed forces and our own police to respect human rights, we've introduced that into the counter-terrorism training we deliver for the Indonesians.

LEIGH SALES: That's at the training end though, what about the accountability end?

BOB CARR: Well, this is absolutely in Australia's interest, but we don't run the counter-terrorism forces. We've consistently raised... we've argued strongly to the Indonesians about the need for their action in the two Papuan provinces - even when they're dealing with people who we disagree with, people who are arguing for separatism, which is not the Australian position - on the contrary.

Even when they're dealing with people who may have used violence means, who are accused of using violent means, our strong position with Indonesia is that the legal process should be open and that the people accused of these offences should be treated with due process.

We've taken a keen interest in it, and I've got to say... I've got to say, at the level of the Foreign Minister and the President, the Indonesians have been very responsive.

LEIGH SALES: Senator Bob Carr, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

BOB CARR: Thank you, Leigh, my pleasure.